NRO and Regional Meeting Update
27 May, 2016
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Good morning everybody, everybody who made it in time to the session, congratulations, this is the most exciting session of the week, Friday morning. Apologies for my voice, it's not been that I have been out singing last night, I have caught the RIPE 72 flu, one of my colleagues has a similar voice, I don't know what is going around. So this is the slightly different session today, usually, you are probably used to the general RIR updates on Friday morning, we are doing it slightly ditch today, the first half hour we will have a few updates, Axel Pawlik will start with NRO update and then Nikolas will present some statistics, some joint RIR statistics and then as a third speaker we have have Nala from IANA, after that we have an exciting regional panel that I have introduce after the first three presentations.
So Axel, please, take it away.
AXEL PAWLIK: Good morning. So, you people, full of inner resolve and strong discipline, I admire that in a person, especially on that Friday morning. Maybe it's just strong coffee that you are full of, but that's OK. The RIPE Chair has advised me of introduction of a new policy that will start from next RIPE meeting, on the Friday morning we will take time stamps correlated to your mail address and we will mail you out vouchers for drinks for the next party in clear relation to when you come in. So you would have won drinks.
So this is the update from the number resource organisation. And if you have seen this before, you know the changes are quite moderate and small steps, but those of you who haven't seen it, this is what it is about. What is the NRO and what does it do. Now, the number resource organisation was set up 13 years ago by the RIRs and it sounds bigger than it really is, it's just the RIRs working together with the lightweight MoU, there is no formal incorporation of anything. The idea at the time was, I can ‑‑ ICANN was occasionally interesting and at the time it was particularly interesting and we thought we want to be ready in order to defend the bottom up industry, self regulatory process in order to maintain stable allocations or Internet address and so forth.
Now you have also heard about ICANN and IANA stewardship transition and all that is going well, we never used the NRO for anything like we feared we might have to many years ago. The mission is to provide and promote a coordinated Internet number registry system, the multi‑stakeholder model and bottom up policy development process, coordinate and support joint activities of the RIRs and that is the main focus, act as focal point for input into the RIRs and fulfil the role of the ICANN address supporting organisation.
Good. So RIR coordination is an important thing that we are doing, global collaboration and coordination, also with a view of governance and Internet governance in the wider field as well, and monitor and contribute to those discussions and to further them in the interest of our stakeholders and our members.
The organisational set‑up, we have an executive committee that is made up as you see by all of the CEOs of the RIRs, the positions rotate so Oscar is Chair this time, he isn't here any more, that is the reason I am giving this presentation, otherwise I am on simple member duty this year, I can relax and let Oscar run the meetings, that is also nice. We have a secretariat hosted by LACNIC and executive secretary that is the same person every year that makes sense, he is hosted by APNIC. And we have in place in this position since 2013, helping organise the meetings and there is actually and writing minutes and stuff like that is actually quite a bit of work there.
We have coordination groups, staffed by RIR staff for communications, for engineering, for registration services, stuff like that.
Finances, we basically share the cost of the NRO operations, so basically travel, it's the secretary, of course, some telecommunications ‑‑ teleconferences cost and things like that, the contribution to the Internet governance forum, to ICANN we sure those costs according to a formula that we developed in the dark ages and sort of more or less still works quite well. Like I said, the budget is shared. We have also among the RIRs set up a prepared for joint stability fund, basically, that is earmarked money that all of the RIRs pledged, it's sitting in our reserves on a special shelf but otherwise budgery neutral. There is 271 million that have been pledged in the case, (2.1) something goes wrong with the RIPE NCC Amsterdam is flooded and then what? So there is some money to get us back up to running there. And help for other RIRs as well. That is in part that is money that is also staff resources of course.
So, we publish information jointly for all of the RIRs, the Internet number status report, you will see that a bit later. We also, for many, many years, publish a policy overview, it's interesting for many years, especially in these days to see what the policy equivalents are in the various RIRs and what the tiny little differences are or the big differences as well.
In the whole IANA stewardship transition process, we realised, relatively early on, while the world is focusing on ICANN accountability possibly, sooner or later people will be looking at the RIRs as well, and why we think it's all good what we are doing and the way we are doing it, we thought it might be coming really important to document how we are doing our business, what our governance structures are and to facilitate that we agreed to set up this governance matrix, again are different RIRs doing their internal governance, to publish it make it very, very transparent and that is something that is, mostly complete but we are still working on it, of course it needs maintenance also.
We have a big question and answers document there as well. We did a joint account the overview between the RIRs; every RIR went out and hired an external party to look at our governance structures and governance mechanisms and to draw up a report for our boards to see where potential holes are, where things could be improved and so forth and I think at the last general meeting in Bucharest, for us at least, Nigel had a couple of words to say. Basically the outcome for the RIPE NCC was it's pretty straightforward, all good, no major things there.
So, I won't talk about IANA stewardship transition, apart from oh, my God we have a contract and I think we all agreed on this, including IANA, and it's Friday today and I think the ICANN Board might actually be meeting. So, there is a lot of hope and we sort of expect us and ICANN to sign the thing at the Helsinki ICANN meeting if everything goes according to plan. I am rather optimistic at this point. Again, you heard about this, this is based on the principles from our community and I won't go into any more details. The work isn't quite over yet, accountability is a big field, some things need to be done quickly for the new ICANN by‑laws but there is working stream two now looking at the things that could be put back a little bit on the shelf for the years to come. So enough work to go there and we contribute as the NRO as the RIRs jointly.
We went to Brazil last year, not because it's a nice and sunny place ‑‑ it was nice and sunny too ‑‑ but also because the IEG F went there, the Internet governance forum is the main outlet or focus or for all of the RIRs to look at in terms of Internet governance and of course they are local and regional and national IGFs as well and we do participate in those and contribute to those as well but this global IGF is the main event, we went there and donate some money for the secretariat to keep the thing running, we had an NRO booth and there was coffee there that was very, very popular and helped our visibility a lot as RIRs in the IGF process. We will go again this year, it will be Mexico and I am afraid it will be sunny and pleasant but we will be inside, mostly. And that is up, update from the NRO, if you have any questions, grab me, otherwise I give it back to Mirjam and thank you for coming this early in the day.
RANDY BUSH: Having lived through years of assurances that don't worry the NRO won't do anything, it would be nice, there is one thing we actually operationally need the NRO to do which the NRO has promised, to do, which is a single RPKI Trust Anchor, especially with RIRs such as APNIC making messes that, as operators, we have to chase and manually maintain, multiple Trust Anchors. It's a pain in the butt. Would you please just do it.
AXEL PAWLIK: Thank you, I will take that under advisement.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Alexander. I have a little opposite question, because when my colleagues from Russia ask me about the number of abbreviations which appear related to transition and governance of Internet, experience problem in explaining why ICANN and IANA need it in this case because in the ROA ‑‑ it's kind of association ‑‑ others but there are two entities ‑ three including inter I I A which are not required for distribution something like this. Could you help me to deliver this explanations?
AXEL PAWLIK: Of course, yes. Well, I do that off‑line as well, but as, you know, if it's not broken don't fix it, that is the one thing. And just of addresses through IANA to us worked, worked for a long, long time, still works, that is fine, we see the one thing about the one government that is special, that is apparently going away so our communications to your constituency should be relatively easy in the future.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Also, don't touch if it works, there is nothing thing cut out and required and it is ‑‑
AXEL PAWLIK: Sure
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thank you, thank you Axel, for being the first speaker this morning.
CHAIR:and next is Nikolas from the RIPE NCC giving a short statistics update.
NIKOLAS PEDIADITIS: Good morning. This is the quarterly report of the NRO on the status of Internet number resources. This has been compiled by all RIRs in cooperation and this is for the first quarter of 2016. Let's start with an overview of the entire IPv4 address space. As you can see, IANA reserve is down to zero, that is no news. 91 /8s have been distributed before the existence of the RIRs, and 35 are set aside for the technical community, with the RIRs having 130 /8s all these years to distribute, which is approximately half of the entire IPv4 address space. So, how much do we have left? Not much, really. ARIN is for quite some time already down to zero, LACNIC is reaching that point and then we have AfriNIC which has the most space left with 1.7 /8s but if you go back to the previous reports, you will see that there is a pretty steady decrease of 0.3 per quarter so it goes down quite fast. And then we also have the RIPE NCC that still has a bit less than one /8, now we get a lot of questions about this, how come you guys said that you reached the last /8 in 2012 but you still have one /8? That is mainly because of the bits and pieces we got back from the IANA recovered pool and also through projects like the 2007‑1 which some bits of IP space came back. We have now entered a a decreasing mode.
Well if we look at it over time, you can see the increase and decrease and if you look at specific RIRs you can clearly see the turning points and the change in policies when each RIR reached the exhaust Seán point and it's obvious if you look at APNIC and the difference between 2011 and 12 and for the RIPE NCC between 2012 and '13. And if you look at the 2015 and 2016 it's really obvious we don't really have much.
In terms of /8s, the APNIC has distributed most of it, approximately 45, and that's followed by the RIPE NCC and ARIN with 35 and 32 /8 respectively.
Moving on to AS numbers, through time the RIPE NCC has issued most of them. It has pretty much stabilised in the last years so you can see that the trend is not changing really between the RIRs. This graph actually is for both 16‑bit and 32‑bit AS numbers and if we look at the numbers, the RIPE NCC 33,000 followed by ARIN, 28,000, 29 almost, and so on. And if we focus on 32‑bit AS numbers, the trend is again similar to what happens to AS numbers if we look at them as a whole. Again, the RIPE NCC is issuing the most 32‑bit AS numbers, but it's interesting to see that AfriNIC, for example, after 2014, starting picking up in 32‑bit and it's actually stabilising as well (for example). And the numbers, 6 and a half thousand by the RIPE NCC and 300 by AfriNIC, as I mentioned.
Now for IPv6 address space, this graph mainly shows you the entire IPv6 address space there is, currently one‑eighth of the entire IPv6 space is what we consider as global Unicast /3, from which IANA is distributing to the RIRs to be distributed further, before 2006 all RIRs got a bit ‑‑ a few bits and pieces and as of 2006, each one has a /12 to distribute to its members and end users.
And if we have a look at the IPv6 allocations, the RIPE NCC is actually issuing most of them, what is interesting is that especially the last two years when we had bit of a change in our policy, and we are not requiring any more people to get IPv6 before requiring IPv4, and this is a message, we don't see a big decrease in IPv6 allocations that the RIPE NCC is issuing so you have a look between 2015 and 16, we don't expect, at the end of this year, a big decrease, if there is a decrease at all in the IPv6 allocations.
11,000 IPv6 allocations by the RIPE NCC, followed by LACNIC, 4,000 allocations, and ARIN, approximately 3,000 IPv6 allocations.
And if we look at the IPv6 assignments, the trend is not that much difference, of course the numbers are much lower than the allocations. The interesting thing is that for some LIRs ‑‑ from some RIRs we see a big difference between IPv6 allocations and IPv6 assignments. Where for ARIN, for example, we see that it's pretty much the same number, it's 50/50 between allocations and assignments, and that could be interesting. And of course, when it comes to the RIPE NCC, we join quite late in the game due to policy around 2009.
And that's, in numbers, what we just said.
And finally, the percentage of the members in each RIR that holds both IPv4 and IPv6, LACNIC is doing a good job here, 85%; followed by the RIPE NCC, approximately a quarter of our members don't have both IPv4 and IPv6, it would be nice if I would say that is because of IPv4 but we all know that means quarter of our members don't have IPv6. And then for ARIN and APNIC, it's pretty much 50/50.
If you want to keep on eye on the stats you can do so through the NRO website and through those links. And if you have any questions, I will be happy to answer.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thank you, Nikolas. Any questions? No. Well, thank you.
Next is Naela Sarras from IANA, give us a short update on the IANA status.
NAELA SARRAS: Good morning and this room is fuller than I thought it would be after last night's party which was really great, thank you. So, I don't typically frequent the RIR meetings so let me give you a bit about who I am. The run the group within IANA that is called the IANA services department so my team and I total five, we look after all the requests that come to IANA from the RIR community, from number resources, from the IETF community for protocol parameters and then the domain names, management function.
Let's see. So I am here to give the IANA update and here is the topics that we wanted to talk about today. And I will go ahead and start with the annual customer survey. So I think you have been accustomed to, by now, I think this is the third year in a row where he do the customer survey and the numbers that I will talk about here are number resource‑related, the input that we got from the number resources, but the rest of the survey results are all available on the website. So, this is the survey that we run every year and I think it happens towards the end of the calendar year, around act November. So this year we sent the survey to all the CEOs of the RIRs and also registration service managers from each RIR. And then every year when we do the survey we touch the database to see who we interacted with in the last months and when we target those customers that we worked with during that period. So, and we did that again for the RIRs this year, so all in all, we had about 16 invitations sent out to participate in the customer survey, from the RIR community. We had a response rate of about 44% and you can see here how that compares with the last two years.
In terms of what the results, this is again the ‑‑ this chart is really only the number resources focused. And these are the aspects of things that we asked for during the survey, you know, process quality, how we are doing on explaining instructions of how to submit requests, timeliness, etc.. while the chart looks fairly good, it's mainly in a satisfied to very satisfied category, most of the responses, it did a ‑‑ we did have a little bit of concern about why the quality of instructions rated for 14% in dissatisfied, I think, category. So we wanted to dig a little bit deeper into that and we engaged with some of the respondents to ask a little about why that was the case. So, there was a suggestion that perhaps we are not targeting the right audience with this survey so what we will do next year is or this coming year, later this year, before we initiate the survey we will engage with the requires and see who it makes sense to send the survey to. So we may get the same list plus a few more, who knows. We will do a little bit more engagement before we send out the survey.
Another input we got is the quality of documentation for how to submit a request to the IANA department wasn't very ‑‑ wasn't very good, it wasn't very obvious where to go to submit a request to the IANA department, we actually needed to submit something. What we said is we will take a look at that and we actually did and we made some changes to the website, some immediate changes to make it a bit more obvious, if you go on the IANA.org website we added a section that says procedures and then the IANA resource request, so and that ‑‑ when you go into that it takes you to the web page that says how to go about requesting the different resources. So that is in the immediate fix, we wanted to do, but of course we are open to suggestions if there is other ways that you would like to enhance the documentation, we are open, of course.
And I think that was it on the customer survey that we wanted to talk about here. And another thing that we engage in annually is the audit. We do an audit called ISOC 2 and ISOC 3 (SOC) so service organisational control are the other types that we do. The SOC 3, this is the sixth year in a row that we do this audit and this someone focused on the processes and procedures around producing the key signing key. So as, you know, the key signing key is used in conjunction with the zone signing key to sign the root zone and we have ceremonies four times a year where we trusted community members and ICANN and IANA staff get together and create the key signing key. We ‑‑ this process here, the audit, the SOC 3 audit looks at the processes employed in this whole process and for the sixth year in a row we have passed the audit without any exceptions so that is the KSK work. Then there is another audit called the SOC2 audit, that one looks at our systems, really, the ones we use in the IANA department, to do our work. So it looks at, wave ticketing system called R T ticketing system, it looks at for root management we use root zone management system, and it ‑‑ so that's the type of systems that it audits and again, I think this is the third year we do the SOC2 and passed it without any exceptions. I quite like both of the audits, I am very focused on the second one because it's looking at our systems and gives us a chance to look at what we are doing and how we can improve and just keep an eye on our processes.
So that was on the audits.
Then, we, as you have acustomed to by now we usually report on how we are doing on handing the space back from the recovered pool. So, per the policy we run this twice a year on March 1st and September 1st, the latest we did was in March 1st and each RIR got about a /15. The next allocation will be on September 1st, and we gave links here to the actual registry of the recovered pool and then the tool that we run. Quite often, right before the tool is about to ‑‑ the allocation is about to happen, so around February and August each year, I get questions of what are we going to get, which I am happy to run the tool and report to you back what you are going to get, but you can always run the tool on your own and know what the next allocation is going to be.
Here we just put a table of the last allocation and highlighted the RIPE NCC portion of what the RIPE NCC got. And then if we keep going at the rate we are going, which is to ‑‑ the pool is what we have and if we do the allocation every March and September it looks like we are scheduled to run out around March 2019. So in the last couple of months there was a question say, what would it take to just do an allocation and drain the pool completely? And my colleague seal in a did some calculation and it looks if we are given back 7, about 7 /24s, between now and September of or between now and when we do the next allocation, then we can do the allocation ‑‑ we can do an allocation that just drains the pool complety and then we are done. But we are ‑‑ we have done this ‑‑ since we have done this talk we haven't received any other space, so I guess this is just hypothetical for now.
And that was it. That's all I wanted to speak about today. And I amy to take any questions.
ERIK BIAS: I have a question which may sound like a hypothetical one, we have a lot of discussions in Address Policy, majority of them is how can we actually do fair run out in the end, actually thinking about how can we speed things up and slow things down and maybe we need to look at this a bit different. What are the options if, for instance, there would be a policy here in the RIPE region saying let's get rid of this, v4 is out and let's just hand over everything that we still have back to IANA and be done with it?
NAELA SARRAS: So that is very hypothetical. Honestly, I think, as IANA staff, I don't think I am in the position to comment on that. So basically, we are there to execute whatever policy you hand us to execute, right? So if you ‑‑ if RIPE ‑‑ if you all decide you want to give what you have and tell us do one allocation and let's be done then that's what we will do. I am not really sure that ‑‑ I am not really sure what I can say, what more I can say about this.
ERIK BIAS: OK.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: If there are no more questions, thanks, Nala, for this update.
And now while I introduce the next session can I ask the panel lists and the moderator to please come up on stage. I forgot to till at the beginning of the session that you ‑‑ it was decided, I don't know who decided that, to have the regular RIR updates only once every year and during the other RIPE meeting we will do something else. And so now this time, what we do with this session, we decided to do like a regional panel and we were thinking when we started setting up these regional meetings or supporting the regions to set up ENOG and MENOG and SEE it would be good to channel discussions happening there back into the RIPE community. We have never really done that formally, I know this is happening informally and the RIPE NCC is reporting back to the community, but we thought it would be good to ask the community members themselves or at least some representatives, to tell you a bit more what is happening in these regions and so we set up this panel with speakers with Sergey Myasoedov, Chair of the Programme Committee of ENOG. Salam is on the Programme Committee ‑‑ on RIPE NCC board. Jan Zorz the Chair of the committee of the south‑eastern European Programme Committee. And we have Jane Coffin, going to be the moderator for this session, she is from ISOC and development of the development strategy so has been involved in a lot of these activities. We have an hour now to channel back a bit of the experiences the panelists have made in their respective regions and we want to leave sometime at the end to ask the audience what more we can do to bridge those various communities that we have in the big RIPE region. Without further ado, I would like to give it back ‑‑ at the back, we have a number of slides just kind of looping around will you will see the different regions that I just mentioned and the meetings that have been taking place over the last few years and number of attendees, we are not going to say any more about that, you can look at that as background information during the panel session.
JANE COFFIN: Thank you, Mirjam and a huge thanks to the RIPE NCC staff. Just for a small bit of information, we work really closely with most of the regions and people like Mirjam for everything from IXP development to v6 on site and organising meetings and just trying to collaborate more as teams across the I‑STAR, it's really important to us to do that because no organisation does it alone. So thank you very much for the opportunity to sit with these great folks, one of whom I work with very closely because he is on our team but the others are part of a bigger team. I am going to start with Salam and ask her a question about the MENOG region and the question is through your engagement in the technical community in your country and through MENOG across the different countries in the region, can you give us an example of a positive development that has come out of that engagement through the RIPE community.
SALAM YAMOUT: I am a ‑‑ good morning, I am a little thrown off by the question because I thought we start with giving a summary of our experience in the region. So, two years ago, the MENOG attendance was winding down, we didn't have enough participation interest so again we ‑‑ I personally thought that it's easy, we will fix it, in like five days, right? But it turns out that we needed to look into our internal processes in the MENOG region, what did we want from the technical community getting together, what are the problems that really are bothering us for which we need to get together to talk. This collaboration environment where we sit one‑on‑one, we sit on equal foot term as opposed to going into a conference where we just listen to somebody else teaching us what we have to do. So this led us to change our governance structure completely. It took us two years, we went from a two tier governance structure, steering committee PC, to now, a PC that has 15 minutes, that is very active because they think there are things they want to do because they were empowered to come up with whatever the region needs. So now you have a very active PC that have decided, for example, to meet once a year, not twice a year, and that is actively wanting to put novel ideas for the NOG community like innovation, they are interested in innovation, and start‑ups, that kind of stuff. For example, this is not hot topic here but say in the Middle East it's a very hot topic because countries like Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan are racing into that innovation space, so the MENOGs of that regions, they think that this is something that we should be talking about there. So to ‑‑ not to bore you further, so the ‑‑ this internal thinking about what needs to be done from our part, generated a governance mechanism change that I hope, in due time, will change to the best, to get more attendance and the Middle East region, I don't need to till this, it's difficult there, some countries are at war, some countries women cannot attend. For you it's the mid‑he Elise but for us in there there is a great difference between Iran, Arab countries and Turkey, we are all Middle East, we don't speak with the same language or have the same culture, there is competition between us, the Turks, the Iranians and Arabs and there is no push‑button, I ‑‑ I there is no RPKI that is going to make things magically appear in five process, it's a process, a process of improvement and everybody has to be in it, you know that because you did had a 0 years ago, we are doing it now.
JANE COFFIN: Thank you, Salam. How did you get involved in ‑‑ how did you get involved in the RIPE community and what do do you in the RIPE community.
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: We are not the only IT related conference in our region. There are some of them are vendor sponsored and some are self organised. So, to attract our audience we need to get more brilliant technical presentations, I think. Well our audience is I see, needs to be presented with some actual questions, for example, on the ‑‑ organising the conferences there is a slightly lower presentation of IPv6 broadband, for example, so I think we need to have more presentations like that. And some other things should be promoted, I think, to give the audience the sense of, that they are involved in the collaborated decision‑making process.
JANE COFFIN: Thank you, that is great. There is a good governance theme here across the regions. Jan, how did you get involved with RIPE, what do you do?
JAN ZORZ: So, you mean with RIPE or SEE? OK. With SEE there was the idea floating around for quite some time and Vesna from RIPE NCC staff was very active at first and started the whole activity and she was chairing the first SEE PC. We had quite successful event in Dubrovnik in Croatia and then I was asked to take over the chairing of PC and have been a chairman since then. We had the SEE 5 in Albania this year, in April. The biggest one was I think it was nearing 300 people in Belgrade, that was awesome event, lots of good speakers and good attendance. In Albania it was different because it is Albania, because, you know, there are some challenges there. But I'm really looking forward to the next year in June; we have it in Budva in Montenegro, it's a beautiful place and we expect to grow even bigger.
JANE COFFIN: Let's touch back on Albania for a second. You said it was very different, but tell me what the impact of that meeting there from the technical side, that you saw on the technical community, what did it do for people in Albania?
JAN ZORZ: So the purpose of the regional meeting is to bring sort of like a bit of RIPE spirit into the region where we see there is no huge percentage of attendance at the big RIPE meetings, these RIPE meetings, so, you know, the old saying if Muhammad does not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to him. So, either combination. So we go there, and I think there was majority of people at that meeting were from Albania and I was observing the community a lot and I did not see them reading e‑mails a lot and they were very attentive and they were listening. They had a lot of questions afterwards on the hallways and I was actually, at the end, I was happy that we went there, because there were some development and the local representative from Russia actually expressed his wish to continue his work on the Programme Committee so, yeah, all good.
JANE COFFIN: No, that's cool and another side product I think of that meeting and Serge and I were were talking about, IXP development and just more training, and these ‑‑ this great projects just start, just because we are talking to each other at different meetings or we throw something to another organisation and say, that's really not us, they really need some v6 help. Salam, Jan was involved in different ways in SEE and had been working in the technical community in that region. How did you get involved in MENOG and what do you do now?
SALAM YAMOUT: You mean now, I am on the PC? OK. The PC's role has changed, so now we are ‑‑ we have also discovered like Sergey was say, it's not easy to gather a lot of people like you guys do here naturally in these countries so we decided, as MENOG, to call for help from the RIPE NCC and to do joint effort together into having smaller, more targeted events, to start again what he was saying, it's feeling the pulse and understanding the variations and gaining the trust of the people. And here, I need to say that also in the Arab world ‑‑ whole Middle East also in Turkey lesser maybe but Iran certainly, if you are working without the blessing of the government, people are afraid, they think that if ‑ shall if they are going to a meeting that isn't respond erred by any government that means they are doing something wrong and so here we also, through the IPv6 roadshow, through members launch, through the more training, you know, and training by Arab people so this train the trainers and the trainers that now give IPv6 and DNSSEC in the region are Arabs or Iranians and Turks, so this all is helping, this is helping. And I don't know if that answers your question. Basically, I have been involved in all of these things and the conception phase and now we are hoping to do a big thing in March of 2017, we are going to skip one MENOG but going to put all efforts this is where all I‑STARs come together, talking to ICANN and maybe ISOC to try to do a bigger event and where I hope a lot of you will come, probably it will be Dubai but we haven't decided yet, will come and help us build this community also together.
JANE COFFIN: Thank you for that and it's critical, with respect to the trust building, people often say unless I see you eye to eye, I have actually met Nala years ago on line and today is the first year I have seen her in person, unless you are at a meeting talking to people, I have exchanged e‑mails with 15 different potential people and I come to a meeting and they say let's do it, it's fascinating how fast it will happen when we see each other. So building that trust, it's important.
SALAM YAMOUT: But it's also cultural. Like in my region, you have to touch, you have to ‑‑ yes, it's not like ‑‑ you know, even the space between people is closer. So, this face‑to‑face meeting is absolutely important. Other than it takes years to understand how mailing lists operate. But that's another question.
JANE COFFIN: That's great. And this is the importance, I always say that I was at a meeting recently in Tunis and I knew some of the people there but a fellow walked up to me and he was from Saudi and usually women are not supposed to shake hands with American and others, with Saudi guys and he was with someone I knew but I reached my hand out and I normally don't do that. I usually just stand there like this because I don't want to make the faux pas. He put it his hand out but he didn't know where I was from ‑‑ I shook his hand, he was actually from Saudi, I said, "Oh my gosh, where are you from?" And he said, "I am from Saudi," I said, "I am so sorry" and he started to laugh, which was a good thing because ‑‑ I knew better, but there are ways that you act differently and you have to, and we all know that but it takes on a very real meaning and to your point, Salam, also, the space issue, sometimes I find myself backing off as a female, it's not as if they are trying to do anything but it's touchier. Sergey, you have a huge region, I used to live there, it's mass circumstances of what are you doing to bring people together, you are ENOG, how do you get people to come and participate with them, is it a mailing list, what do you do most?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: Yes, of course there is a mailing list but I would say that the traffic in this mailing list is ‑‑ so usually we speak to the people face‑to‑face or at different events, so there is also IXPs mailing list, so I don't think that mailing list plays a major role in communicating with people.
JANE COFFIN: But again with so many people ‑‑ some of you speak a common language across the region, but you still have to build that trust, yes?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: Yes, definitely. Well, with the huge territory, several countries have different political regimes and approach to the regulation issues, from the complete absence of the regulations to different coordinated system, so even inside the industry there are several approaches to domain name industries like maybe civil cryptography, all of them ‑‑ all these issues should be taken into account when talking to people, when planning the conference.
JANE COFFIN: Jan, I am going to turn to you again. We just talked about Albania. Tell me what you think you can do to encourage them more to participate in the SEE community.
JAN ZORZ: So, it is twofold, basically; first of all, I think that south‑eastern European RIPE regional meetings became a sort of like a famous because they are very well organised, I would like to thank RIPE NCC staff for doing great job, and but the other hand is a Programme Committee. I have been encouraging Programme Committee to basically reach out in the whole region, so first of all, I tried to put together the Programme Committee every time that is represented from the whole region, from Macedonia, from Croatia, I am from Slovenia, basically from every country in the region, so they can reach out to their local communities and recruit good speakers and good content. You know, I'm ‑‑ I am not screaming and shouting but I am telling them, please talk to people in your region, bring the people from the whole region in and try to submit the content, try to show what you are do, trying to share with others what you are working on. This seems to be working. You need a really active Programme Committee to bring the good contents to the well organised meeting itself.
JANE COFFIN: Salam, you mentioned the role of government and, often, as a technical community we can be a little allergic to government but in your region you have just indicated how important that is. Give us an idea of how the exchange of technical experience across the MENOG region through RIPE's excellent work in that engagement, how has that been useful to governments in your region and what has it done?
FILIZ YILMAZ: Yes. First, RIPE is the first I‑STAR that has gone into the Middle East and that is very important because I mean, for people who know me from before I used to be shouting, where is the technical community in our region? I mean, you know, I couldn't just hop on a plane and go to an ICANN meeting or to a RIPE meeting. So, it's important that RIPE had an early engagement in the region. And even though RIPE is considered by governments at the time as part of the conspiracy against governments led by the technical community and I‑STAR, with time they understood RIPE was able to establish itself as a neutral body, and that's very important. It helps a lot that we are now associated with the US because a bit sensitive in the region but also because RIPE established a record of neutral activities, that we are neutral body, we care about how the Internet functions, the technical aspects of it, training, information, so with time the governments have started to look at RIPE as a source of information as well, you know? And have accepted to be not educated but to talk to them and this way the position of RIPE now allows us in the region to be neutral and to go to governments and to say, we are RIPE, would you like to partner with us, we are having a round table meeting and IPv6 roadshow, a conference, MENOG? And this has really helped.
JANE COFFIN: Yes, at that takes layers and layers of engagement, sometimes, and years, to bring something to fruition, whether it's just that simple trust. Is it the same for you in your region, is it establishing the trusted neutral experts from RIPE because that is key?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: As is our audience is mostly the Internet operators, some of them are considering all ourself organising or community driven organisations as a kind of world government. So, I think we should to continue sending the message to them, like we are not the government, we don't need your money or tacks, we only need your human brain, we need your wisdom, and maybe some of your attention, if possible.
JANE COFFIN: The other thing and I do a lot of work in Africa too, if you have a watering hole for animals and I will be a /STKPWHREB /RA and you are a jury of a and you are a lion and you are a help /ARD, we may all come to the same place, we are from different communities but we /SRAUL a central place we can go, I see RIPE as the watering hole, the different animals are coming in, we may not recognise each other right away but we have a common objective, we need to come to that watering hole or we are all together in that space. We recognise each other, and we have a place to go to exchange ideas on technology, how to did you deploy v6, Jan you did this in Slovenia, worked with the community, brought technical expertise and you brought it to ISOC and across the community. That is huge. Tell me, from all the great things that have happened, what are the mistakes that might have been made that you would say we need to improve as we need to improve these in these communities both in SEE and part of the bigger community?
JAN ZORZ: If we expose the ‑‑ for example, IPv6, I think there is a leap between technical world that is deploying IPv6 or trying to deploy IPv6 and the management world that don't understand why they should deploy IPv6. And I think we need people that would listen to the problems the technical community have with deploying IPv6, translate it into a lingo that management people and policy people understand, and talk to them and persuade them in their language why we need to deploy IPv6, maybe this is the next task for the Internet governance people, not just to have philosophical sessions, how we should do stuff but actually listen to the technical community, listen to the problems, try to understand and translate this to upper layers and actually help us.
JANE COFFIN: Excellent. Often, you see really smart technical people who understand a problem and it doesn't translate up. I saw that on a v6 task force in the US from a government perspective years ago and I watched the technical guys say there is this problem, you have got to move it up, how do you get it up there because you are going to have a forklift upgrade and the CEO is not going to be excited about that. In the same spirit, I am going to ask you question for all of you what is it that the Internet technical community can focus on going forward and the Arab world, Salam, for you, what do you see futuristically from the technical side?
SALAM YAMOUT: So I see it in two ways: On the one hand, we need a water hole that you are talking about. So, like, because I have discovered in the past two years that actually, the kind of community that has built like here, has also built over time because people work together. It's not only they came to a meeting and say Hi how are you doing? There is some common interest and they worked together on a problem and became eventually friends. I'm trying to identify problems that the Arab community or at large the MENOG community could be addressing. A simple example is CIRT, we don't have a group of people around the Middle East region that are part of a CIRT I thought we could get them together. I am sure there is a lot of ideas and if anybody has a an idea how projects we can create in order to bring the people together to form that strong newically as of a ‑‑ please discuss that. And get some ideas. On the secondhand, I see it like communicating phases, right, we have to do more to come towards each other. And that's for sure. At the end of the day we are still mainly euro American community. That is how we look from the outside. This morning at breakfast I got the name, the euro American from the Swedish professor. But we have to do more to come together and I think it's unform the responsibility of those who have that need to make an extra effort for the rest. And I think we all will become a better community at the end. I don't know if we are cursed or blessed in the RIPE region to have 76 countries, God knows how many cultures because every country might have more than one culture, I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse. I personally think it's a blessing, it's our diversity that is going to make our strength on the long‑term and our sustainability so I hope we will be able to make better effort to reach out to each other.
JANE COFFIN: Yeah and it strengthens business across the regions too if we are speaking the same technical language and working together.
SALAM YAMOUT: And it will break the Internet less.
JANE COFFIN: Yeah, no breaking. Sergey, some question for you, from the ENOG region. . What should the technical community focus on, going forward, just some thoughts.
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: Well, I think we should focus on involving our community to hold our processes like bottom up processes we are supervising. So like standard development, maybe regulators' discussions, this all maybe to ‑‑ help to attract the governmental regulators to our discussions. I think we should focus on this.
JANE COFFIN: Just a follow‑on question: There was the old standard called G OS T in the region, which was a standard across the region. Are you seeing any conflicts with that, are governments becoming more accepting of IETF and the work that is going on through RIPE?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: What I see is that government is still trying to invest in the standards development but my feeling is that they are not enforcing their ‑‑ its implementation.
JANE COFFIN: Which means there is an opportunity then for the Internet community standards which are bottom‑up being deployed to have more feet on the ground, yes?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: Yes, indeed.
JANE COFFIN: Jan the same question for you: What do you think from a technical perspective, what do we need to focus oranges you are a tech guy in the SEE region?
JAN ZORZ: Well, we usually, we usually have a pretty constant spectrum of content at our meetings, it's usually IPv6, something about the infrastructure, its measurements, it's a policy session it's the IXP session. So, I think we are ‑‑ we are focusing on all this important topics, but what I see as the most useful outcome of our meetings is to bring more understanding in the region and the operators in the region what RIPE is, what RIPE NCC is, what RIPE NCC does so they stop thinking that they are buying addresses, right? Because, you know, from that region, from ex /KWRAOUG /SHRAF I can't region and surroundings, there is not much participation at the RIPE meetings and there is no much understanding of what RIPE is or what ICANN is, what ISOC is, what all these things is, they are just ‑‑ they, you know, they have different understanding of this and I think we are trying to improve that and I am happy to see these changing.
JANE COFFIN: Yeah, as we said before it takes time, and just people, like all of you, spending that time talking to people in the governments, I mean there is a natural suspicion, right, among and between government and the technical communities on occasions with organisations so we have to create that understanding across the organisations. Let me ask this question from each of you, call it speed round, under a minute: Should there abstanding intra community exchange at reach region meeting, so an update for you from MENOG and SEE and would that help?
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: That could be interesting, yes, definitely, but at the moment I don't have a clear vision of what to ‑‑ what exactly we need to share.
JANE COFFIN: Salam, same question.
SALAM YAMOUT: Yes, I think, yes, it's a good idea.
JANE COFFIN: Jan? Zorz well our next meeting is in Budva, beautiful place on the seaside and the hotel is on the waterfront so welcome to come and have the update.
JANE COFFIN: Budva is gore Gus ‑‑ we had a great meeting in /SKWRA*B lick, three hours newspaper a mountain village, RIPE, ISOC, INEX, France‑IX and the guys from Czech IX and organised it to work with professor burr /TKPWO*E from the university, and we thought well, all right lets see what is going to happen, three hours up in the mountains, highly isolated, dogs bigger than any dogs I have ever seen in my life, and so much snow and all of us there with them, just talking to each other, and it was hill airious, hopefully the IXP will get launched, we are donating equipment, RIPE has gone back in, they formed a community in Montenegro. Dr. /PWAO*UR has all these young people from the university learning more about RIPE, different standards and what is going on. So with that sort of spirit, what can the I‑STAR, and I know this is, we have all created that term for ourselves, the ICANNs, the ISOCs, the IANA, RIPE, do together more, is there more that we can do together. I look at Salam closely on this one because ISOC is hopefully hiring soon a Middle East director and people have heard us say that for a long time but we are going to be the new kids, RIPE has been there, they have done an amazing job, how do we fit into that with you. We will go to you, Jan. What can the I‑STAR do together more, can we hand off to /STRAOEFP other, strengthen, what do we do?
JAN ZORZ: Well, with my SEE hat on, I think that the I‑STAR should bring more contents to our regional meetings, especially with increasing the understanding of the regions, what do we actually do.
JANE COFFIN: Salam, from your side?
SALAM YAMOUT: Well, you know, the nuance in the I‑STAR is evident to the people inside of it, but from the outside, you know, I mean, it's not clear to the people that yes it's names, numbers, parameters, you know, how the things go so if we approach the audiences together, you know, and we coordinate and first we need resources, each other's resources so it's better if we all work together it's like your buck is multiplied by three, it's wonderful. And secondly people are less confused because they see us as one technical community and each will have the specialisations, right, if you wanted to do IPv6 you will go for sure to RIPE, but like in MENOG we need to talk about DNS, about names, why? Because people are interested, they want to know this is where the problems they are facing, right? So I am totally with you here, Jane, there should be more coordination and I'd go further to say maybe a common strategy in order to reduce the risk and maximise the resources.
JANE COFFIN: Yeah, because we could learn lot from you about, and RIPE, about how to go into the region, quite frankly. I mean I have worked with some people in the region but I don't know, you know, I am trying to shake hands with a guy from Saudi for God's sake.
SALAM YAMOUT: Don't worry I have done that before, the first time it's painful but then you get used to T
JANE COFFIN: There is one woman from Africa who said why won't you shake hands with her, I said I can't, and I felt so bad for one of the other guys. So Sergey, the same thing for you.
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: I didn't mention so much I‑STAR events in ENOG event except ISOC, Armenia and IGA forums, I have a feel that the community taking all this organisations cautiously, so there is not so many points of cooperation and not all community members ‑‑ understand the benefits of such way of organisation.
JANE COFFIN: There is also one idea I would have on the training side, and we have been thinking about this with colleagues who speak Russian, we have been going into Kirgastan to take a look and see what we can do and build a community, our chapters and we have been thinking about an IXP and one idea we have had is to come to ENOG and say you have got rugs speakers, how can we work more closely with RIPE and ENOG so we bring you in, the hand‑off, if you will, to help us, is that something we could come to you and say here is the training we have, it's basic network operator training.
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: And you mentioned IXPs, so I think any work in the way of new IXP formation will be extremely useful for the community.
JANE COFFIN: Yeah, we had brought Kurtis to Kyrgyzstan last November and it was fascinating, I said I am pretty sure it's layer 3, it's not really an IX, I thought it was layer 3, can you go find out and of course Kurtis, CEO, all the experience, IETF, he went over there and in two minutes came back and said yes. Like OK, we have some work to do. And he spent time with that community and that is something only Kurtis can do, I can't do it, I can go and get something started but he is the guy and he has done it and ‑ with NetNod and now with LINX and so that kind of cool synergy about bringing in the people that run IXPs who know who what they are doing, that is where we are headed and magnifying sort of the work.
SALAM YAMOUT: It's good you pointed out this, when we did the IXP in bay root it was the same thing, RIPE brought Euro‑IX, I don't know who, in two weeks we had six people, yeah. It helps.
JANE COFFIN: Yes, it really does. And we did the same thing in Serbia and Jan you were there and it was amaze to go see the guys needed some help and was it switch, was it training, how did we do it and it came forward. I think we are going to wrap it up so we can give people an opportunity to ask the panelists some questions. Just give them a quick clap for all of the great answers here.
And thank you, truly, because this is ‑‑ it's bringing technical expertise, seriously textical expertise to to countries about Kyrgyzstan, double land‑locked. It's amazing. So thanks a lot for those doing the work.
RANDY BUSH: IIJ. May I make just a small suggestion, which is a little humanity and change the name I‑STAR to something like IServe or IStewards or something.
JANE COFFIN: I will take that back. Thank you. That is a good one.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Alexander I am from MENOG region and also vice‑chair of Programme Committee. I have mostly not question but a little addition to everything said on panel. First of all, I would like to thank RIPE NCC who is spending membership money not only on Western Europe but also greatly support regions which are not coming to these events. Well, Jan mentioned that in region is tradition to buy ‑‑ joining RIPE NCC is buying IP addresses, well that is because region is slightly far away from this Western Europe so articles of association isn't operated by members like, well end user agreement, you just click to get services, just sign to get your IP addresses, because Dutch law was far away, California law is far away, no one came to enforce you and there is no reason to read it and therefore no reason to understand the processes which are standing behind it, no reason to understand community processes of policy development, no need to join this process, no need to support your employers who will go and discuss it. Well, to be fair, I am an example of this because on everybody board elections and people say I am completely supported by my employer, actually in this region it's not like this, I am not completely supported by my employers and joining some of ‑‑ I need to go to my employer and say OK I am on unpaid leave just to join this event if you are not supporting me. I would like to again thank RIPE NCC for supporting this activity and I would ask to have more, more activity on explaining what RIPE NCC membership is and how RIPE NCC member should actively participate and support participation in RIPE community.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thanks, I will bring that back.
SALAM YAMOUT: Can I answer? Even though it wasn't a question but I feel I need to also answer. First, I mean, in my region, I don't think we look at RIPE only as buying IP addresses, it has never been. I mean we know we can get the IP addresses from RIPE but I don't think it ever was that idea ‑‑ and what was the ‑‑ what was the second point? For later.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: It was ‑‑ the RIPE NCC took more to explain what the membership does and can do in the region.
Desiree: I wanted to thank for all the individual efforts that they do in their region but especially Jan and Vesna for starting the south‑eastern European region. You have ENOG which is the networks operating group and then MENOG but with SEE we only have south‑eastern Europe RIPE meeting regional meeting, so what I have found out in the region, having attended all the five ones, there is an enormous interest from the community to have more of the meetings and you have actually inspired a whole lot of community to set up IXPs like the one in Montenegro, now we are getting requests from Macedonia, I think there will be one there and Albania so we really see the benefits of all these interactions that took place over the last five years in the SEE region. I think people are very interested to learn from technology, how it is going to evolve and what not to do is ‑‑ may think there is some other solution around the corner so not always wanting to implement something. If I could, just the last thing is that I think if Jan and all of us together, if we can have a more concentrated effort, how to have the south‑eastern European networks operating group work more succinctly, to have some kind of a SEE NOG I would see that going in the right direction.
JAN ZORZ: There are rumours that we might have sort of a BoF in Budva. The names that are going around are balance can NOG or something like this. Our friend is very active in this regard. But yes, what I see is that where we have a meeting with SEE, people start thing about creating a local NOG, like a national NOG or something like this, and we ‑‑ there might be a natural needy involved so that these NOGs sort of like start cooperating together. We have in ‑‑ in Slovenia we have SEE NOG, Slovenia Jan NOG quite active, around 200 people on the mailing list, 100 members that signed the charter, and we have a SEE NOG meeting in June together with our eleventh Slovenia Jan submit and I see the increase in the NOG activity in the region quite much but I think we could do a bit more to encourage it even more, so when you were talking about IXPs, Bosnia hertz expressed the interest to start the IXPs and that happened in Albania while I was there, the whole thing happened while we are working for the dinner ‑‑ walking for the dinner on the street, I met these people and we were like I would like to build an IXP and this is how these things happens.
SERGEY MYASOEDOV: I would like to use the opportunity to invite more people to our meeting that will be ‑‑ will take place in just in days Moscow. So, with the next MENOG and SEE meetings just only next year, the ENOGs are being organised twice per year and the next one is just in ten days.
SALAM YAMOUT: And also I think Desiree brings a good point because in order to have strong MENOGs and ENOGs and SEE NOGs, we need to have strong national communities so national meetings and national NOGs, whatever you call them, the activities in every country are necessary, mess to start, because you are building it bottom up. Last thing, he I remember I wanted to tell Alexander, it's a two‑way street, not one way. I take unpaid leave to come to RIPE meetings. But eventually when my boss will see ‑‑ because I have a personal vested interest now in the community, and that's what we have to aim to reach at these regional and national levels. Once the people have a vested personal interest, they will then conveyance their boss and their boss's boss and their boss's boss's boss. So, RIPE is helping and needs to continue helping but here our job is ‑‑ the difficult part to to do the difficult part so we are meet in the middle.
VESNA MANOJLIVIC: Regarding SEE region NOGs, there is very young community in Serbia called RS NOG, they have a active mailing list and organising a meeting in November in Belgrade so this is the invitation from kind of advisor to the Programme Committee to approach them and they would love to see more presentations from the RIPE community. So November, Belgrade, Serbia.
JANE COFFIN: And I just want to thank Vesna, Leia, Mirjam and others on the Atlas team, I know I am for getting people. Through the interaction with the team at RIPE, we are trying to combine a measurement analysis we are doing, we are looking at prefixes and routes in different African countries. And you are thinking Africa, what, Jane? But, know that there is a lot of amazing work being done, we are working with a university in Spain, a coder from Benign and RIPE and we are trying to make sure more anchors are being deployed in IXs and different parts of the world, thanks to RIPE we have reached out through other colleagues, to just try and bring it together more so we have a better picture and visualisation of where that Internet is going. What that does, just an FYI, I know many of, you know, you are technical experts but if I am trying to explain how the Internet has grown in a region, to a regulator and why it's important to know who the IETF is and RIPE and AfriNIC and ISOC and IANA, we can show them with this data, we are trying to figure out how to best make it look and it's been RIPE that is pushed that forward the most and so through partnership it's going to be great to see how that comes forward.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Any more comments, questions from the audience? Maybe I have one for the audience. This is kind of a bit of an a experiment, we have never done this before and I was ‑‑ I am hoping this was useful for you, I am asking you if you found it useful and maybe in the future RIPE meetings we could, well, not repeat this same format possibly but integrate all these regional discussions a bit more also in the RIPE meeting infrastructure, like in the Working Groups, so it was kind of a question to the PC and to the Working Group Chairs and to you and what do you think it's useful for, to invite speakers to your Working Group, MENOG there is a discussion about DNS related issues and it would be useful to invite speaker also for the Working Group session in RIPE.
JAN ZORZ: May I add something. We are just discussing here behind closed mics why not ‑‑ we probably need more cooperation between the regions, why not prosing a BoF for the next RIPE meeting and see how the discussion goes?
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Excellent idea.
AUDIENCE SPEAKER: Sergey invited you for ENOG 11 ten days in Moscow, continue inviting speakers to November ENOG 12, which will be at the beginning of October. So, if you would like to speak in local community, so you are welcome to prepare talks and rate it to submit something at the call of presentation. Thank you.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thanks.
SALAM YAMOUT: Can we ask ‑‑ quickly by show of hands how many have attended regional meetings? OK thank you.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: A few. Not too many. Could be more.
BRIAN NISBET: To answer your question, Mirjam, yes, I certainly found this useful this morning, so I mean thank you to the panel. I think that there is an undercurrent of knowing that this is going on but it's very good to surface it, so to speak, and to talk about it, certainly speaking only for my own Working Group, I would not attempt to speak on behalf of the PC, you know, we have always had in anti‑abuse there has always been an awareness of the regional issues, people like Alexander have been excellent in contributing in telling us what is going on in those areas of the world and I think it is extremely useful and I think we can live a little bit too much in our northwestern European bubble and I think that the work that the NCC has done and the community members have done over the last few, years especially to really kind of integrate this and ‑‑ integrate is entirely the wrong word ‑‑ to make it more obvious and aware, to make it obvious to us that we can't ignore, nor should we ignore, what is going on there, I think is very important, but it needs more work. It is far from a done job so thank you for this and hopefully there should be more things like this for the region.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thanks for the feedback, Brian.
JAN ZORZ: If I can add to what Brian said. I would love to see more people from RIPE community, from this community, the usually suspects, if I may say, to come and join the ‑‑ our regional meeting and share the expertise with the regional community. I think that that would be great. PC, and this is all volunteering work and people is working really, really hard to bring content to a region, and I know how much work this is that my ‑‑ I called them my 12 cats that I have to herd, are putting into this and I would like to ask all of you to participate more with your knowledge and come to my region and share. Thank you.
MIRJAM KUEHNE: Thank you. Well, thanks for coming to this session, thanks to the panel for getting up here on a Friday morning. And we will take forward the idea of organising a BoF for the next RIPE meeting, that sounds like a good idea. So with that, coffee break.